Speaker 1: 0:00

Dating sucks for young people. Man, trying to date a young woman as a young man right now is hard, unless you like. They call it the the 666's, but that's like 4% of the population. That's not enough people. What the fuck are you guys supposed to do? 10 young women are chasing one guy who meets that.

Speaker 2: 0:26

I'm so glad I grew up when I did.

Speaker 1: 0:28

Me too, so glad. Oh, we say that all the fucking time.

Speaker 2: 0:31

I could, I wouldn't. I would probably be riddled with anxiety and depression if I grew up in this, we'll get into that.

Speaker 1: 0:38

This world, we'll get into that. That's a fucked up thing. Okay, thank you for tuning in to this episode of the redacted. We have a guest here today that works, and has worked, in the mental health field for a very long time, and thank you for coming on.

Speaker 2: 1:29

Thank you so very much. It's a very passionate about this topic.

Speaker 1: 1:33

Yeah, yeah, it's going to be a great show. Um, I have to put a little trigger warning out there. Trigger warning and a disclaimer. So we're going to be talking about things to do with mental health and maybe mental disorders and medications and things like that. So just keep in mind obviously consult your healthcare professional. We're not offering advice in any kind of way For that.

Speaker 1: 1:58

So you know, this is just to basically understand the experience and the story and kind of what's going on with mental health and inpatient care facilities. So you know, obviously Take it for a grain of salt and listen and joy, get something out of it, but in no way medical advice. Yes, yeah, important to say, we gotta yes, I'm not a doctor. No, no, I'm not a doctor, just play one on tv sometimes.

Speaker 2: 2:27

Hey, that's all right.

Speaker 1: 2:28

Yeah, um. So you have a quite extensive, Uh, quite an extensive experience working with um People in the mental health field and, specifically, you started Working Um what was it Did you say? Prisons and inpatient.

Speaker 2: 2:46

Yes, I went right into, uh, the maximum security men's prison.

Speaker 1: 2:51

Holy crap, yeah, that's like uh, out of the frying pan and into the fire right there and that.

Speaker 2: 2:58

It's it was a goal and I achieved it, so I just it's like okay, let's do this.

Speaker 1: 3:06

So that was your first job like out of school. Mm-hmm. Wow, why was it a goal?

Speaker 2: 3:13

I wanted to work with, like I just felt like these individuals are so fascinating like why did you commit this crime? What was driving you? And I know all the stuff we learned in school is fine in a book, but you don't really. Yeah. See that when you're reading. Yeah. It's talking with the person, learning that person and like why are you like that? Then, when you have mental illness on top of that, then it's even more fascinating.

Speaker 1: 3:43

Hmm, I, I guess, uh, that would be, as a demographic, very rich um and in variety, because you would, comparatively, you'd probably have to say that, like the normal population, the normal productive population is pretty homogenous Compared to what you'd see in a prison, because, I mean, you have a huge, just variety of people that have been, you know, out of the system we're used to.

Speaker 2: 4:16

Oh, for many years, and they're going to be in there for life. That's where, unfortunately, they're going to have their last breath.

Speaker 1: 4:25

So yeah, you were in maximum security. So what Was your job? You were doing mental health counseling and therapy and Things like that, with these inmates as men's prisons.

Speaker 2: 4:38

So these guys right, right, well, and this it was the way I would describe it is a prison within the prison. So this was, um, um, something that came out of a lawsuit where there was a sex successful suicide. The family won and part of that was we need more mental health in the prison system. You know the the individual who passed away with the successful suicide was claiming, you know he was depressed and nobody was talking to him. So that changed a lot within the department of justice also. So this was supposed to be for those who were severely mentally ill, just meaning with mood disorders like schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, borderline personality disorder, so the heavier, not personality disorders like anti social, where our criminals are.

Speaker 1: 5:32

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 5:34

But we had a mix.

Speaker 1: 5:36

Okay, so you're taking very serious clinical mental illnesses, like medicated. Yes, you know, ingrained in in mixing them with people that just might be a little Bipolar or a little. What do they? They have personality disorder a lot.

Speaker 2: 5:56

Some, some, um, you know, and those are. That's where your anti social personality disorder, your narcissistic personality disorder, those individuals Are different than the mood disorder, than individuals, that's a whole different. Okay, I know. So with the mood disorders it's actually a chemical imbalance. Oh, okay so, for those medications are very helpful for leveling out the moods. Okay, so when you just have a personality disorder like anti social, narcissistic, histrionic You're you're talking about people who have just had severe traumas in their lives generally, abandonment issues, abuse, all these things but they prey on people.

Speaker 1: 6:45

Yeah, I was gonna say that they're probably a little more apt to be predatory.

Speaker 2: 6:49

Absolutely. You know, and I saw that you know, taking, you know, the individuals suffering with mood disorders, taking their commissary writing on them, taking advantage of them sexually. Jesus, and it's just, it's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking because, while these individuals are there for their crimes and regardless of your mental health, you still are responsible for your actions. Yeah, we have nobody's excused from it. Okay.

Speaker 2: 7:20

They definitely should not be in the same vicinity with these predators who they take advantage and lack that empathy and don't know Understand hurting someone like that's like a level like there's like psychopathy is what they would call it, right, that's where you're just unable to empathize and yeah. You can't relate. You don't know how to. You were never taught.

Speaker 1: 7:49

Yeah, you didn't have Um you'll just do whatever you need to do, exactly.

Speaker 2: 7:54

Yeah, you don't give a shot as your needs are met. Nothing else matters.

Speaker 1: 7:59

Hmm, now, in just kind of a I guess a question I'm wondering. I mean, there's a lot of people with Um psychopathic or sociopathic tendencies, right? Not all of them end up in prison, you know, not a majority from probably don't. Is there a way to treat that? Is that treatable, or is that just something you're kind of just in your opinion? I Am is there a way to make them empathize or to get them to.

Speaker 2: 8:31

Well, there, there are some therapies that you can do. I mean in and again that there's so many different variables. But there is one therapy that is done in the prison and mostly geared more towards those that carry the diagnosis of the anti social personality disorder, and that's mrt. It's moral recondition therapy. So it's following instructions, it's doing everything to this, this t, and just trying to really Focus on where you're not sure that thought process.

Speaker 2: 9:11

So there are some therapies out there. Um, you could try to address the trauma, yeah, um, it depends on you know, if that person wants to. Yeah, but you know, I think we all carry some of those traits. Just because, you know, some days we're like oh yeah, I'm looking extra good, I'm gonna hit. Look at myself in the mirror every time I walk by.

Speaker 2: 9:36

You know, or oh no, I gotta get my quarter back from that. All these cart, yeah. So I think we have like little traits, but when it becomes your whole, you like empathy, you like compassion. Yeah, you can't feel anything. Yeah, you heart, you know animals.

Speaker 1: 9:57

Yeah, yeah, those basic like dexter. Do you watch dexter?

Speaker 2: 10:03

Love the dexter. Dexter was great.

Speaker 1: 10:06

Dexter was fantastic. It gave us like a hero in a psychopath, like using it for the could we get?

Speaker 1: 10:15

yeah, I like using it for the good purposes and I think a lot of I mean you talk about people even out of prison I mean a lot of like high powered CEOs and you know very successful, hyper successful people could probably be be psychopathic, sociopathic, um, because that's how they got where they got. They did what they needed to do, they stepped on who they needed to step on. They didn't break any laws. They might not have hurt anybody, but they went kind of that path with it and used it.

Speaker 2: 10:48

Yeah, just grabbing on again Having their needs met.

Speaker 1: 10:52

Yeah, regardless, it's like a manipulative thing. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 10:57

Yeah, and, as they describe it, actually in that mrt therapy, because it's like living in your prison, your own prison, so living in your own mind. Um, when, would you say, we first learned to manipulate?

Speaker 1: 11:12

What age, mm-hmm? Oh man, that has to be super early. Like I see my kids do it.

Speaker 2: 11:19

They try to manipulate with crying and turn on fake tears, and at three, the way the book described it, and it's not verbatim, but it's basically the gist when we're evicted from the womb we start manipulating. Wow, oh huh, that's our form of communication, right? Yeah cry. Mom comes cry, dad comes cry. This cry, that cry, so we start manipulating, is like one of the first behaviors.

Speaker 1: 11:51

Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense, that's fucked up. Well, it's probably. I mean it's good. I guess we have to have some of that. They said um and I don't know if I've heard this different ways um cats.

Speaker 1: 12:07

I don't know if you've ever had cats. They say that cats Meow, so they don't meow at each other Like wild cats don't like meow at each other. They They've somehow learned to meow at people, to manipulate, to get their attention, to get food, to be cute. And they said it was like emulating, like babies crying, like trying to Like domesticated cats. I don't know. I heard it. I like the story. I don't know if it's true or not.

Speaker 2: 12:43

I'm trying to think about. I didn't have cats for a very long time because I was allergic, but we had a cat that adopted us when we lived in the country and the only time she would want to be touched was when she was having kittens. Oh wow, but then she wouldn't mother him. We had to like, force her down.

Speaker 1: 13:04

Kind of weird.

Speaker 2: 13:06

She was a mouser, she'd like to be out in the country and, yeah, doing her thing, but that's the only time. But she would become chatty and she would like start, you know, walking like they learned to manipulate.

Speaker 1: 13:18

Like everything that has like social communication and interaction has to manipulate to some extent.

Speaker 2: 13:25

Look at dogs, yeah, yeah, they don't get the puppy eyes, come on. Yeah, they know how to, they know what they're doing.

Speaker 1: 13:32

They know what they're doing. Little jerks, little sociopaths need a job, so here's a weird one. Maybe I've been saying it wrong psychopath and sociopath, what's the?

Speaker 2: 13:48

The. The difference is.

Speaker 1: 13:50

You know it seems like kissing cousins.

Speaker 2: 13:54

I don't really in just then. This is just my opinion. I think there's the same.

Speaker 1: 14:00

Same. Thing. Yeah, I mean Psychopath sounds worse. Say look, I think a sociopath sounds like something people just throw around all the time, but like psychopaths it sounds like it's like norman baits, like psychopath.

Speaker 2: 14:20

Yes, yeah, I was actually doing some reading because you know, all the definitions change all the time. Yeah, yeah, there's some form of change, like they just come out with a dsm 5 and then, oh, shocker, no, we have an update. Yeah, and one thing that I read and I don't remember source I did Was saying that they were really kind of trying to get away from the whole sociopath part.

Speaker 1: 14:49

They had so many similarities and so I don't go with Psychopathy instead.

Speaker 2: 14:57

Yeah, it's. Yeah, I don't remember, god, what was that, I don't know. Again, it's online, so I don't remember. I don't think it was like a pa Reading or anything like that. Um, but no, I think they're, because they're basically the same.

Speaker 1: 15:13

Yeah, so, um, and then we got off track a little bit. So you were working in this facility, so within the prison, so it's a wing of the prison or something and, um, you said you know, these people were picking on the people with mood disorders and that was kind of a mess.

Speaker 2: 15:32

It was sad.

Speaker 1: 15:33

What kind of shit would you see in there?

Speaker 2: 15:35

Um, well, I know the one Offender. He would wake up. They would have. They drew on his face, drew a star, made all these like racial slurs and everything like on his face and, um, they would, you know, make them have sex with them. Yeah, um, again, just it's fucked up shit. It was. It's very. It was very fucked up and Not under, and that was my first job in the prison system, so I'm absorbing it all.

Speaker 1: 16:12

I'm trying to figure out how it really works and that's a super high level too, because then I'm thinking max security, and I mean, what would you call it? The psych ward, the man?

Speaker 2: 16:24

Yeah, but that you would not learn. You can't learn that stuff in a textbook, and in no way a textbook prepares you for that.

Speaker 1: 16:34

Yeah, I guess that's a, that's a trial by fire right there.

Speaker 2: 16:38

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 16:39

So, um, I mean they probably should have done that different and had the what the mood people just in general population, but with medication.

Speaker 2: 16:51

No, so those most vulnerable with the mood disorders to be kind of isolated. Okay the personality disorders. Yeah, you guys go back with Gen Pop, because that's mostly what Gen Pop is anti socials. You guys go back out there. You know. This way, the vulnerable are protected. Okay they're not. You know, being Pray for these individuals there, you know. Can you know Rest at night? Yeah.

Speaker 2: 17:25

Not have to worry. And you know in the guards do the best that they can and and everything. But you know where there's a will, there's a way, they're gonna find a way to do it. They always did, they always will. So it's just you know needing and I hope that's changed Because that was brand new when I started working there. So hopefully that has evolved and it's changed and it is better now and that they really are starting to look at separating those individuals with legitimate mental illness in the prison system for those that reason.

Speaker 1: 18:00

So this has to kind of make me think of that too. So you said the people, the personality disorders should have been in Gen Pop. Do you think a lot of them manipulated their way into that ward? I'm sure to get a little easier into, maybe Because they could kind of run shit there right. Right. It was probably better for them. Oh, it's easier.

Speaker 2: 18:24

Yeah, they were more like in dorms so it was brand new. So I'm sure, well, that path, you know that's gossip, that's like, okay, the whole person knows everything now.

Speaker 1: 18:36

Yeah, so I'm sure that went around and I'm sure they use their core manipulation to be able to Do whatever was required to be able to get to that, that new structure or that new facility for those that are mentally ill so in working with these people and and I guess I Guess maybe a more interested in the the personality disorder part of it what was kind of I Mean and this is just in your own experience what's kind of like a common thread. What did you see a lot in talking with these people?

Speaker 2: 19:18

Nothing was their fault.

Speaker 1: 19:20

Nothing was their fault.

Speaker 2: 19:21

There is an excuse for everything.

Speaker 1: 19:24

So that's a common thread. And then If you go into, you know how they grew up and maybe what kind of trauma they experienced. What, what's a common thread there? Did you see patterns?

Speaker 2: 19:41

abandonment okay abandonment is is a big one and abuse. Emotional or sexual or sexual, yeah any any kind of abuse.

Speaker 1: 19:55

When you're a kid.

Speaker 2: 19:57

Yeah, the neighborhood, the environment you grow up in. You know, if you're you're, you're born into this neighborhood that you know always on the news because there's guns and drive-by's and all of that you know. All these these things are instilled at a young age, so there's, you know many different Things that play into that. But I think a lot of times we forget how important the environment is and the effect our environment has on us also.

Speaker 1: 20:27

Yeah did you? I mean, I guess there's a picture you can paint with that bad neighborhood, abused growing up, maybe abandoned men, issues, shit like that. So that's maybe one. Is there another? So like another level of like Educated, good family, rich People that you came across?

Speaker 2: 20:54

Teflon. I call those Teflon Teflon people. Slides right off, so they've never had to be accountable for anything.

Speaker 1: 21:02

So there is same same problem, same common thread. Not my fault, not accountable right, because some way we're talking about status now.

Speaker 2: 21:12

You know CEOs, education and all of that. You know mom and dad have always covered everything up. Yeah. My kids didn't do that, my kid would not do that. Well, here, no, I'll just let me just write a check in. So where's the accountability? Yeah, there's no accountability. So how do you learn? Anything is your fault. Hmm. How do you learn that right from wrong, I guess?

Speaker 1: 21:39

That's kind of it. There's a fucked up dichotomy in that, because you're talking about the two extremes, both forming a fucking personality disorder in somebody. Like one family tried too hard to take care of the kid and Did too much and didn't let them fail and didn't let them Own up to whatever they did stroke the check, made the phone call. So you'd think that's good parenting, maybe they thought they were doing a good job, but then you raise this psychopath and then on the other side the neglect is obvious. I think we see that, I think we could understand that, I think most people would agree. But the other one you're talking about, like the Teflon people, that's a sneaky one.

Speaker 2: 22:27

Mm-hmm, that's a sneaky one and you, you, you see it, you see it. I've worked with individuals like that in in mental health yeah, who you know and supervisor roles, do whatever, because you know account of it or? Of this department. No accountability. I don't do anything wrong.

Speaker 1: 22:52

They're like their own little psychopath narcissistic yeah, what do they call that? They call that the, the dark triad, or something. It's like a Machiavellian principle, like a narcissistic psychopathic. Might be another one in there, I Don't know. I've heard it.

Speaker 2: 23:17

Yeah, it's, it's. I'm telling you, there's some characters and it's sad yeah it's really sad.

Speaker 1: 23:24

Yeah, and I. Mean what? What do you think is the breakdown that's led to a lot of that? I mean, are we rewarding psychopaths, are we? I Mean, if you're talking about a good part of the prison population of this max is probably suffering with us in some way.

Speaker 2: 23:52

Yeah, that you know there's Because you have so many different types of crimes. So you know where are we. Which crime base are we looking at?

Speaker 1: 24:06

Like a productive redirect, like kind of what we were talking about before. Like the military, the military has a lot of that, like I was in. It has a lot of people that are probably pretty aggressive.

Speaker 1: 24:18

You know, but it's Like a useful redirect If you can take that you know aggression and use it for good. You know what? What else is there? Not fearing bodily harm, you know? I'm sure that's kind of Somewhere in there and we all had that to some extent because we signed up to Go to war and that's in our just Ourselves.

Speaker 2: 24:43

Fight, flight or freeze. Yeah in those situations Also. So we have part of us that's naturally going to take a role in that. And then, depending on, like you're saying, with the training and stuff, you're trained to do that. Yeah, you're trained to be aggressive for that situation. Yeah, be able to separate it, and some people get lost in that.

Speaker 1: 25:03

Yeah, I saw a lot of. I saw a lot of people that I just came across in the military that you know they came from neglectful like. A lot of people came from the more neglectful side, not the privileged side, but you know that we're able to really turn that energy and turn their lives around and Do something great with it and then they either Make a career out of it or they retire and know that they have confidence and skills and you know Like kind of a moral compass mm-hmm on things that seems to be like a Productive way.

Speaker 1: 25:39

But everyone can't go in the military, you know, maybe sports is a good redirect into aggressive energy, and that's Well something that's that's up and coming now.

Speaker 2: 25:52

Rage rooms.

Speaker 1: 25:53

Rage rooms. What the fuck is a rage room?

Speaker 2: 25:57

It's. You go to this room and there's random stuff in there you have you can use like a bat, golf club. There's hammers, sledge, hammer, you can, and you just go in there and you just break the hell out of shit. Yeah, talk about a release. Yeah. Talk about a release now. Tell me that. Hmm well I know I felt the therapeutic value so you did. I did, yes, yes, I did. I brought a group of us.

Speaker 1: 26:32

I want an old copier like office space, or was that office space? Yeah, that was office space, the old copier they had just smack it.

Speaker 2: 26:41

There's therapeutic value in that and getting that rage, that anger out, because If we don't do that, you know it's bad for our health. Yeah, heart attack, a stroke. But where's that anger coming from? What are you afraid of? What are you afraid of that anger generally comes from fear, the unknown anxiety, Fearing something that's not there right, that's where we get in our cognitive distortions and we have to start Understanding that.

Speaker 2: 27:14

You know, it's not just mumbo jumbo, that we talk about their real things. Yeah, you know what are we doing? Well, yeah, I catastrophize everything. Yeah. I think, oh, this is gonna be horrible, I have no reason to base it on. Yeah you know I'm a mind reader. I know what's gonna happen. Yeah, always know. Yeah, we have to think about it, you know.

Speaker 1: 27:38

What were they call that? Like making general statements on stuff. Like bad shit always happens to me and yeah, yeah, yeah, there's never works out and I always have bad luck and kind of just making these like grand.

Speaker 2: 27:52

Yeah statements towards shit and you see a lot of people do that it is and that's one of the things when I start working with Individuals is I introduce them to cognitive distortions, because I think we have to understand how we're thinking, we're, we're, we're upset, we have anxiety, we have a depression, we're in one of these cognitions negative, or these cognitive distortions in here, we're in one of them, something's looping, you know, and Like whoa, whoa, yeah, oh yeah, I'm an always, always and never always, it never is yeah, those words.

Speaker 2: 28:32

You know you're over generalizing things, you're minimizing, you're maximizing. We've said catastrophizing mind reading, jumping to conclusions. I mean, we do these things and we don't even know that we're doing it and we're just so conditioned we have to. Okay, stop. Okay, where's this anxiety coming from? I'm gonna do, I'm just gonna do horrible. Okay, why are you gonna do horrible? You know, and you start. Okay, now You're really starting to catastrophize. Why, where are you afraid of? Well, I'm afraid I'm not gonna do. Well, okay, there you have it.

Speaker 1: 29:09

You do well, awesome, if you don't, you try again so it's like, and to kind of jump jump from that to. I mean, if you're talking about like anxiety, you know what anxiety and kind of depression and compulsions, aren't those all kind of the same family, so to speak? Like anxiety and depression are not the same thing, but they're really close and one usually leads to the other.

Speaker 2: 29:38

Well, they're usually intertwined. Yeah, Generally if you're giving a diagnosis of anxiety, depression, they're a packaged deal. Yeah, and they play. They can play off of each other. You know breaking it apart. Yes, they can be two separate entities also with that. So then you have, like, your OCD and your stuff that comes with the anxiety portion of it, where you just you can't rest, something's not in order, something's not right Something's and you just can't sit still.

Speaker 2: 30:18

But then those some things can grow into compulsions, where you know some people, pika, where you eat random objects. You know I can't remember the word.

Speaker 1: 30:28

Anorexia bulimia, like we just we just interviewed somebody with anorexia and I learned a whole bunch of things I didn't yeah.

Speaker 2: 30:39

It's about control If you feel you have no control over anything else in your life damn it. I control what I put in and what I may come out of my body.

Speaker 1: 30:49

So I guess the weird thing is just in my, in my kind of age group and in my observations of people I'm seeing especially younger people coming up. It's like everyone has anxiety, what the fuck. And it's not. It's not something that's new. Anxiety is not new. I mean, the Greeks, the ancient Greeks, had a word for it and I was. I was reading about like mental health history, like a long time ago, and it's. It comes from the word anxios, which means to choke.

Speaker 2: 31:24

Yeah, so does the anxiety feel like To like choke from within.

Speaker 1: 31:29

Yeah, like they had that word then. So it's not like a new thing in the human condition and that's part of that fight or flight. Yes.

Speaker 1: 31:41

Where anxiety comes from. But it seems like, to some extent, like, okay, it's good to have your fight or flight in our lizard brain, right In our caveman brain, like I walk past a cave and a bear jumps out. Now I need to be worried. When I walk past caves, I need to be a little amped up. I need the adrenaline, I need the stress chemicals because I might have to fuck and run. Yes, you know, but we don't have caves and bears anymore and it's like that. What is that? Your hypothalamus? Yeah, it's like all mistuned, and especially with the generation a little younger than I am. Why, why are they so whacked with that?

Speaker 2: 32:30

Well, that just break down to think about the differences just between you know them growing up now and the way we grew up. Yeah, I feel bad for them. What did we? How could we have anxiety? We had to be outside playing all day.

Speaker 1: 32:45

Yeah Well, we had, like normal probably, anxiety, like oh, I got to pass a test Exactly, and then you resolve it. Like you get anxious about passing a test and then you take the test and then the anxiety resolves, like there's a reason, like it's okay. It's okay to be a little worried or a little hyped about something.

Speaker 2: 33:07

That's normal, it should be. Yeah, that's normal.

Speaker 1: 33:09

Yeah, but to just be like anxious for nothing. And their lives, our lives, just even the last 20 years have become so much more exponentially comfortable. You know, we know everything. We have phones on us to call for. We're never abandoned or trapped Like what the hell did we do 20 years ago, like you had to go to a pay phone and remember? A number.

Speaker 1: 33:37

Yes, you know it was weird. Or to like drive somewhere you might get fucking lost and end up in another state because you fucking didn't have the map yeah the. Mcnally fucking turned the right way. So now everything's so laid out, it's so easy. There's not a lot of challenge.

Speaker 2: 33:58

So when we are presented with a challenge, we don't know how to manage it. Everything is so accessible. You know computers, Information.

Speaker 1: 34:11

Yeah, just information Overload.

Speaker 2: 34:13

Overload. Our eyes are the first to process information and it's I mean, think about what your eyes process yeah, and it's going. So your brain is firing off from the time you wake up all day long and you're just processing stuff and you know we're going and now, okay, we have this laid out and this laid out and we have this, okay, and we have to do this now. Well, no, not that. Well, now that, no, the kids have this after school and then that after school on this day and that day, and this day and that day, and it sounds like calm.

Speaker 1: 34:50

Yeah, is it like trying to be perfect, like a lot of chasing perfection?

Speaker 2: 34:55

I'm sure for some, I'm sure for some, that's still going to ring. I don't think that's ever going to go anywhere where you know keeping up with the Joneses. I think that's always going to be out there. So, like you know, my kids doing this and my kids going to this school and they scored this on their SATs or whatnot, but you know, I'm sure that's going to always go on in some social circles more than others.

Speaker 1: 35:22

I mean, and that seemed to be something that was always there. You know, I'm kind of like I'm like looking at new things. I'm like what's the new thing? What's going to be our big fucking problem in five, 10, 20 years with that? And the thing I can't quite wrap my head around is just like, yeah, the new anxiety and it's. Did we shield kids too much? Did we shield them from failing? Did we shield them from danger? Did we shield them too much To where they don't know how to handle anything? Now they're just they're.

Speaker 2: 36:01

You know, hypothalamus isn't fucking tuned Well you know it's again because it's new I never saw so many young people with this shit. I don't remember anybody having anxiety when I was like in high school or anything Like chronic.

Speaker 1: 36:19

I guess you'd say it's chronic. It's chronic and it's over, nothing Like there's no bear. There's no bear. But your brain keeps telling you there's a bear which is just hump and stress, chemicals sending in and substance abuse and drugs and shit like that. And it's like this, it's almost like this shutdown anxiety where people just it can anxiety. They just avoid. Yeah, like I don't know how many in it and it's ramping up just like people cancel things, just all the time or just ghost.

Speaker 1: 36:58

You like I'll have work like employees for my business that would just shut down and ghost and not pick up the phone Like younger people. And it's like this weird, like they can't handle anything, like when something actually comes up for like a confrontation, they just completely they don't have the skills yeah, it's like they were we're not taught how to deal with.

Speaker 2: 37:23

You know failure, rejection. You know these are things that are going to go on throughout our lives. I mean you know we're not going to fail. I fail so many times a day and you're going to get into a confrontation and you're going to lose sometimes, sometimes you're fucking wrong and that's okay, it's perfectly okay.

Speaker 1: 37:46

That's what like getting a disagreement and be like, yeah, okay, and you make your point, and then they make their point. You're like oh man, I fucking lost that one. Yeah, that's okay. Yeah, they were right, they don't have that. Yeah, would that fall under? People don't do that no there's, they have to be.

Speaker 2: 38:07

No, I'm right, yeah, right, you're not going to know like scared of it. And they would just rather shut down than bother.

Speaker 1: 38:16

Look, if we're having a debate on this you know you're not going to be scared of it, and they would just rather shut down than bother.

Speaker 2: 38:25

Look, if we're having a debate on something and we're having a rock star conversation about it, I have no problem. I'll respect your point of view, yeah absolutely. You know, and that's okay. And if we all thought the same it'd be so dang boring.

Speaker 1: 38:42

Oh, yeah, homogenous.

Speaker 2: 38:44

Imagine.

Speaker 1: 38:45

Yeah, that would, as long as everyone doesn't think like me. That would be really bad, that could be scary, but yeah, yeah. No, I don't want to think about that. I need balance. My wife balances me.

Speaker 2: 38:59

Yes.

Speaker 1: 38:59

There's good balance. It's ying and yang right Yep. Yeah, but just and especially after COVID. Like COVID just ramped everyone the fuck up.

Speaker 2: 39:13

Like well, it kept everybody isolated. It kept everybody isolated, it instilled fear. So, of course, people wanted to isolate, and then everything became accessible. You could. Your laundry could be picked up, your groceries could be dropped off your booze, your liquor, your drugs the home delivery stuff is. Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 1: 39:38

I see that you don't have to go interact, you don't.

Speaker 2: 39:41

So now people are doing everything behind a computer screen and when they go out it's like seeing more social anxieties. They call it a goryphobic.

Speaker 1: 39:55

Is that a goryphobic?

Speaker 2: 39:57

That's when you're afraid to leave your house.

Speaker 1: 39:59

period, but I'm sure that's ramped up after COVID Big time you probably quadrupled the amount of agoraphobes, if not more Give them a reason to leave.

Speaker 2: 40:11

What's the reason to leave? There's not, yeah. And then by the time it comes to happen it was that movie, sigourney Weaver, I think she did a movie years ago and I believe she was agoraphobic in that movie.

Speaker 3: 40:27

Oh, I didn't see it. I can't remember the name of it.

Speaker 2: 40:29

But that just so, starting with the isolation with the kids. You go into school, you're not going to school here. We're going to school. Okay, not all kids can have computers. What are we going to do with that? Remember where I was living in Washington, at one of the parking rides they had a mobile Wi-Fi so the families in the rural areas could bring their kids so they could connect to the Wi-Fi, so they could do their schooling. Okay, now the kids are in school, they're out of school, they're being schooled at home, they're doing this so they don't know what's going on and kids need routine. If kids don't have routine, then anxiety and we have all this stuff going on. So the kids, the younger kids, were thrown out of whack, I mean, and it just kind of snowballed. You're stuck at home. What do you do?

Speaker 2: 41:19

You know, you lose some social skills.

Speaker 1: 41:22

I felt horrible for the like teenage kids through that you know. Maybe sixth grade through, you know senior year in high school that had to fucking hit hard, especially in the bad states with the bad lockdowns that had to hit hard. And what's so fucked up is those people weren't in danger.

Speaker 2: 41:45

It was that fear that was instilled.

Speaker 1: 41:47

But they were just well and like I can't imagine, just like, oh there's this invisible thing outside that could kill me, and just being so concerned because they hyped that so hard and it's almost like they played to our fears. I mean, the media does that anyway. That's how they get eyeballs, that's how social media, that's how you get eyeballs. You get eyeballs with fear.

Speaker 2: 42:13

So think about it Every time you turn on the news. We start our day off traumatizing ourselves.

Speaker 1: 42:18

Yeah, right, you know.

Speaker 2: 42:19

That is true, but really.

Speaker 1: 42:23

You want to turn on the evening traumatization, yeah.

Speaker 2: 42:27

What's headlining tonight?

Speaker 1: 42:29

Yeah, yeah. What do you need to worry about now? I know it's like I don't know why I do this to myself, but I like the weird scam ones, like all the weird scams that they always put on the news, and like social media and it's like don't ever give your telephone area code over the phone number because somebody is going to steal your voice and kill your dog. It's like these, really weird. I'm like geez, I got to worry about this now.

Speaker 2: 42:55

I don't.

Speaker 1: 42:56

I don't pay attention.

Speaker 2: 42:57

No, and it's see it's overload. It is it's overload. It's like we need to make things simple again. Yeah. We need to slow down.

Speaker 1: 43:11

And I feel like we're safer than ever. With technology, Everyone's house has a camera. Everyone's cell phone can be tracked. I really feel like that has just we're probably the safest we've been. And it's and we're more scared than ever about like even kids, like raising kids, right, and I find myself a little.

Speaker 1: 43:41

I don't know doing this myself, but like we're worried that they're going to get abducted or something all the time. That's like the biggest fear. But then we have the Amber Alert system, right One, which is a great tool, absolutely. But two, the last fucking 20 Amber Alerts I've gotten have been one of the parents in like a custody dispute. So it's like, okay, our kids getting snatched off the streets Probably not as much as you think they are, but it's an anxiety thing, like we're fear, we're scared of something that's probably not going to happen, not saying don't take precautions, not saying don't be safe, not saying don't be smart. But I mean the kids kind of suffer on that one too, because we used to just get let out the door, bye. Yeah, come home when the street lights are on. And there was probably way more kidnapping, said there was probably way more sexual assaults on children than and child molest. We just didn't know about it as much.

Speaker 2: 44:55

We only had what NBC, cbs and ABC News oh yeah, and no social media.

Speaker 1: 45:01

There wasn't all this fear propaganda all the time Like, oh my God, you know, like some kid in Canada got stole off their front lawn five years ago. Okay, that's not saying it can't and doesn't happen, but it's so you know that's got to be like a mental health thing Like this is so rare.

Speaker 1: 45:21

Why are you worried about this? Like veterans who used to have PTSD, I remembered talking with people and stuff like that after we came back from Afghanistan and talking with other war vets and they're like yeah, you know one of the terrorists or Al Qaeda from over there could track me down in my house and, you know, kill me. Or like if I'm out at a restaurant and they know me and you know I'm going to get attacked or my family's going to get attacked. It's like an irrational fear of something that's most likely not going to happen.

Speaker 1: 45:55

I mean that's way off there so how do we, how do we deal with that kind of stuff too, Is it like?

Speaker 2: 46:04

well, you have to. You have to backtrack. When did you first feel that irrational fear? Very, very first time, and not talking in that particular moment, between 807 and 80810. What made you feel it? What? When was the very first time you felt that? If this wasn't the first time, when was the very first time? How old were you? That very first time Cause it could just be a trigger response also. So, thinking about when you very very first felt that uncomfortableness, what was going on at that time?

Speaker 1: 46:42

So for a parent, projecting one of their problems onto their kids is kind of what we're talking about, and that parent maybe has that irrational fear, that irrational problem, and they've projected that onto their kids.

Speaker 2: 46:57

Unfortunately, and coming from a good place, I'm sure I mean I don't have kids, but I'm sure, coming from a good place, they don't want them to have that.

Speaker 1: 47:06

They don't want to put them through that, yeah Right, but it's probably like we're talking about getting abducted, like if I talk to 10 parents my age, five of them are probably horribly worried about that. They're not worried about car accidents, which is the most likely way to get hurt or die.

Speaker 2: 47:28

Well, it's something that the severity of it is so much grander, or in that mindset.

Speaker 1: 47:37

Yeah, oh yeah. That would be way more horrible of a thought. Right so that's to think of them being murdered versus a car accident. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 47:46

Yeah, there's a lot of things that play into factor on that stuff too you know.

Speaker 1: 47:51

But like, if I talk to those 10 parents and five of them are worried, I mean I think they just got fucking traumatized by news information. Well, when we see it repeatedly, so how the fuck do you address that?

Speaker 2: 48:04

Repeatedly, repeatedly.

Speaker 1: 48:07

Go back to the first time you've watched the news and write about it.

Speaker 2: 48:10

Right, as my brother says, I just don't watch the news. He has this place, he goes to get the highlights and that's it. He's like I don't do that. He's like I don't start my day like that at least that's smart Like okay, kid, I probably should do the same, you know, and then we do it. But if it's around us all the time, you would think we would eventually desensitize from it. Yeah. But we haven't gotten there yet.

Speaker 1: 48:40

I feel like I kind of did, like maybe I paid more attention to it as it started ramping up and political news and all that crap. It's like who cares man? Yeah, like you, just kind of.

Speaker 2: 49:00

Is it worth it?

Speaker 1: 49:01

No, because once again you're sitting there worrying about something that you have zero control over and is probably not going to happen, like the world's gonna end because Hulk Hogan's going to get elected president. Well, one probably not, and two probably not. And even if it does, you ain't going to stop it. So why the hell are you worried about it, right?

Speaker 2: 49:28

Right.

Speaker 1: 49:31

And that's a big thing in mental health isn't it, control it is.

Speaker 2: 49:34

And the conversation that I've had with clients, whether it be in the prison, in the hospital or in the community. What evidence do you have to support that thought? What concrete evidence do you have to support that? Well, I was feeling. Okay, a feeling isn't evidence. We have to think about it and put it's putting your thoughts on trial. Exactly. What do we have to balance this out? And, in that, taking that moment to pause to distract ourselves from that anxiety, because now you're trying to think about it. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 50:09

Okay, maybe, so you have to convince yourself that it's not true. Have that internal dialogue. This is an irrational thought. Going on a roller coaster ride, we'll just say, oh my God, I'm going to be the one it's going to get stuck.

Speaker 2: 50:27

I'm stuck upside down and I'm all anxious and I'm sweaty, I'm like a butterfly, but it's a game. Okay, realistically, how many of you are right? It's like okay, I know this isn't going to really nothing's really going to happen, but that becomes part of so I've made it into like a game, like I psyched myself out right before I get on the ride, where I'm like, no, I can't do this. And it's like the fuck, you can't get your ass on that roller coaster ride and do it and it's fun. But so we have to weigh out what is what's logical and what's not logical.

Speaker 1: 51:07

It's like fear is so illogical itself. Like I have a friend and he's a very logical and he doesn't listen to podcasts anyway, so I'll talk about it. He's a very logical, logical man, smart, intelligent, and he's scared of lightning like you wouldn't believe. Like if he hears lightning, he like runs to the center or whatever house he's in. Wow, like in the house he's scared of lightning. It's not just like outside in a field with a metal pole in your hand, like the dude's scared in the house and I was like man buddy. They literally use this as like a this is like a turn of phrase like you're more likely to get struck by lightning. It's literally that improbable.

Speaker 2: 51:58

But he has that fear.

Speaker 1: 51:59

Yeah, it's like, even when you realize it, you almost can't help it. But I guess he's, I guess that's not something you're going to. Like, try to work on. Like you're not going to go to therapy, like I want to be less scared of lightning.

Speaker 2: 52:15

Some stuff like that. That, no, that just reminds me my grandmother. If it was thunder and lightning outside, we couldn't be on the phone, we couldn't have the water going Like, we couldn't take a shower, wash the dishes or anything like that.

Speaker 1: 52:30

Oh okay, and then there was someone who was sitting on their toilet. I saw this, you could look it up, it's out there somewhere. Someone was sitting on their toilet and lightning struck, hit some water pipe or whatever and like split the toilet, like the whole ceramic bowl just went, no, so it's like all right, well, if it's your time, that's one of those moments.

Speaker 2: 53:01

Right, and how few? One in how many? Yeah?

Speaker 1: 53:06

That that's going to happen. You can't just go on worried about everything. I guess you got to make that determination like is it worth it to keep worrying about the shit, and what is it keeping me from doing?

Speaker 2: 53:17

And I know just myself. I have that internal battle all the time with myself, because I do run on the anxious side, but so I have this dialogue. It's like, lisa, okay, what is going on? And you know and like, okay, you have absolutely no reason to have that thought. Okay.

Speaker 2: 53:39

Where did you even come up with that? And then it's like, okay, jam up the tunes or whatever. But you know, we have to be okay with having, with talking to ourselves, having that internal dialogue to have these conversations so we can figure out is this a rational or is this irrational, is this logical or nonsensical, like what's going on here, and it's okay to do that. Yeah, it's five minutes, five minutes, have at it. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 54:15

And trying to teach people that that's okay to do. Also is everybody's so rush, rush, rush, rush nowadays too, which I think contributes to the anxiety. We have to rush and go here, and we have to rush and go there, and nope, we gotta get this one to ball practice and that one's got to go here. And then we have to get a dog to the vet and, like I think, everybody's lives are so busy.

Speaker 1: 54:41

You'd see that. Oh see, that's a weird one for me. I feel like. I feel like certain groups of people are very busy like parents, young kids, activities, working. There's that demographic, definitely that I feel like, and this is just anecdotal but I feel like everyone else is kind of less busy, like not busy enough, like young people, like a lot of them, full-time job numbers are way down, young people in the workforce is way down. And then, with all the you know, order your groceries, order this order that I Feel like a lot of people are just sitting in their house, girl on their phone.

Speaker 1: 55:34

Just sitting on the device it's. It's a weird thought, but but there's, I feel like people were busier like 20 years ago, like real busy, and then like technology didn't make your life as easy so you have to like go do stuff. I. Don't know, it seems like rush, like that's the cliche that we think of. Is this rush, rush, rush? I don't know. I see a lot of people just sitting in pajamas scrolling their phone. I Mean, I do it. Oh.

Speaker 2: 56:09

Enough I do my share. Yeah for sure. That's, you know, part. Well, you know succumbing to technology and where it's taking us and everything, and but you know people get, get caught in that and that it does like become an addiction In and of itself. Yeah, you know, you've got these, you're, you're firing off your brains like oh, oh, oh, oh, you know, and that's like the worst thing to do is to be on your phone before you go to bed.

Speaker 2: 56:39

Yeah, yeah, we all do, we all do that one sleep disturbances, which that can lead to, you know, anxiety and impression. Yeah you know if we're not getting enough rest and Because, like, what is your sleep hygiene? Look like?

Speaker 1: 56:55

Yeah that's a big thing, and I've heard that was mental health, sleep hygiene. Yeah, so what is? What is that?

Speaker 2: 57:03

It's basically just trying to have the same routine nightly, so make it and everybody's different. You know what they recommend, what seven to nine hours of sleep, but each person is different. But kind of having you know the same routine before you go to bed, like maybe you take the dog for a walk, you, you know you clean up, you know you get your jammies on, you read for a half hour, you turn everything off and you go to sleep.

Speaker 2: 57:36

Okay so in getting yourself into that routine and, you know, waking up at the same time. So trying to keep that as steady as possible can help us because there's actually there's Calmness in our routine. So if we know we're gonna go to bed and this is what our nightly routine is gonna look like, will become calmer, getting towards that, because we know that's routine, we know that's how it's gonna work. I'm gonna put my jammies on, I'm gonna recap my book, I'm gonna read for half hour and I'm gonna drift off to sleep.

Speaker 2: 58:12

That having that routine is very important and that because that sleep hygiene if we neglect our hygiene, like if we don't go to the dentist- yeah we start to decay, yeah, and then you know we're not getting our brains not getting the rest that it needs, and while again it's, some people need four hours of sleep a night. That's fine. But, you know we're not getting that rest, so Just having a routine to it.

Speaker 1: 58:39

Absolutely, is the important part.

Speaker 2: 58:41

Yeah, and maintaining it. So we have to take care of it daily. We should take care of it, we should try to develop and not have it be stressful, like just something you enjoy. Before you, maybe practice some mindfulness before you, you know you go to bed, have some lavender or pillow spray, you know it's your reading and so you have that helps the senses and then you have this pleasantness, this calmness that comes over sounds nice pillow spray, lavender pillow spray.

Speaker 1: 59:12

That just made me like a little relaxed and tired just hearing on the power suggestion. Yeah, that's true, made a friend I mean sleep hygiene. So he was suffering probably from a little anxiety and alcoholism and he got suggested to buy like like old-school pajamas, like like Ebenezer Scrooge pajamas.

Speaker 2: 59:37

I think one describe to man.

Speaker 1: 59:38

No, like this, like like old man pajamas, and he like puts them on at the same time and like built a routine. But that tremendously helped him is taking little steps like that.

Speaker 2: 59:53

It is to to build that routine. It does take a long time to build a routine and we can fall out of it. You know, just like that, so easy. But once we do that and we have that, it's Our bodies feel better, our mind is rested, our moods aren't as like. You know. I've seen that thing. You know you just don't get a night's sleep and one thing doesn't work and you're just like angry at the whole world. Yeah, Well, you know.

Speaker 1: 1:00:21

I mean speaking of sleep, and I mean this is probably somewhere in mental health and comfort, but this was a weird one. I was talking about this the other day with somebody. But like I Mean like we have hundred dollar pillows now in 4,000, 5,000, 10,000 dollar beds and we have sleep watches, like you know, track your sleep and people are like measuring, like how good asleep that I get, how many times and they got our and far sleep apnea mask and they have mouth tape and they have Melatonin and all this sleep stuff.

Speaker 1: 1:00:57

All this sleep stuff. It's like are we obsessed with it a little bit too, and like the mattresses. Okay, 70 years ago people just slept on an old mattress for years. It's just like a cotton pillow Like, and they didn't worry about it too much. And now, as I get older, I need more pillows. I Need more, better pillows.

Speaker 1: 1:01:20

Like my fucking arm falls asleep and shit Like, why the fuck did my arm? Well, that's the next step. So like like I turned 38 years old and all of a sudden my shoulder just falls asleep. All the time it was like my 38th birthday present at some point.

Speaker 1: 1:01:39

It's just been asleep every time since, like I have to do like nerve stretches acupuncturist and get that nerve-taking care of how the fuck did people deal with sleep like 50 years, like I have to talk to like a Somebody who's 80 or 90? I bet they still sleep with just like a regular mattress and a pillow and they're not like worried about it my mom still has this.

Speaker 2: 1:02:05

I Don't even know how long she's had this bed for, but I love going there and speak. It's good to like hugs you when you get in it.

Speaker 1: 1:02:14

It's an old bed.

Speaker 2: 1:02:15

Yes, and it just like fits you. It's like a glove.

Speaker 1: 1:02:19

I think they just dealt with it. They just dealt with whatever matches.

Speaker 2: 1:02:22

Yeah, you know how all these options like nowadays it's like we're sleeping worse new car and we're sleeping worse Somehow with all this shit.

Speaker 1: 1:02:32

I, I swear I've been looking at this and now I've been getting ads for this fucking thing Because of my stupid sleepy arm, because I'm a side sleeper, so I get like an hour and then it's numb, and then I get a flip and then it's numb and I I almost bought this horrible contraption of it like a $300 pillow With like a slit in it for your arm that goes underneath I.

Speaker 2: 1:02:57

Didn't know, they made those they do.

Speaker 1: 1:03:00

I found out and now you know Targeted ads want to keep telling me over and over again that they do exist. I keep looking at them like, but what? What the hell happened? Like? We have so many options. We have they got sleep meditation apps.

Speaker 2: 1:03:17

Let's think of everything. Let's think about anxiety.

Speaker 1: 1:03:22

Too many choices too many choices many choice thinking about it too much.

Speaker 2: 1:03:27

I just need to get yellow mustard. Yeah. I don't need to sit there for five minutes because there's 50 different kinds of you want the five-star mustard, the.

Speaker 1: 1:03:36

It needs to be like the highly, the most highly rated mustard the one that comes in a barrel.

Speaker 2: 1:03:41

Is that that one? I don't know.

Speaker 1: 1:03:42

Plot ploach man's.

Speaker 2: 1:03:45

Just go for French's.

Speaker 1: 1:03:47

I don't think it matters yellow mustard.

Speaker 2: 1:03:49

That's it. It's too many choices, we're presented with too many choices, and that brings anxiety like a toothbrush, like go, try to buy a toothbrush on Amazon.

Speaker 1: 1:03:59

It'll take you a half hour.

Speaker 2: 1:04:00

Yes and you'll end up buying something for like $400 Because we want to have and then you won't be able to find the, the replacement, yeah, so then you gotta buy the whole thing over again.

Speaker 1: 1:04:12

Anyway. So what's it? Start all over.

Speaker 2: 1:04:15

There's, there's that anger.

Speaker 1: 1:04:17

Yeah, our toothbrush budget is. It's going through the roof.

Speaker 2: 1:04:23

Because we must use the electric the pursuit of perfection is yeah it's a thing, it's making.

Speaker 1: 1:04:31

I think that's making us mentally ill in some weird way.

Speaker 2: 1:04:35

Well, it's definitely causing obsession with that well, and one of the. I wasn't all about going to see Barbie. When it came out I was like Okay. But then I kept hearing reviews that it was very much like empowering, and so I'm like okay, let me check this out. Then in the beginning, and I'm like I'm not all down for a musical. Yeah but then, as it started going through, there were some really good points that were made as far as Relationships like with Barbie and Ken you know Ken never felt like he was good enough but Barbie never paid attention to him.

Speaker 2: 1:05:20

I can do everything myself and then just breaking it down and it. That was a movie that had a lot of lessons in there, so definitely not the stereotype that I fell into. When it first came out I was like, you know, I grew up playing Barbies. What am I in it? Yeah, I just movie, but the things that they talked about thought patterns, you know it was really. I mean I do suggest it being watched because there are some very good basic fundamentals of psychology that are even in that. And you know that race perfection Nobody's perfect.

Speaker 2: 1:05:57

Yeah nobody's perfect and we have to give ourselves a break on that. We're flawed, you know. I like to tell clients, you know we're perfectly imperfect. Yeah. Yeah, we really are, and there's no, you're full of snakes.

Speaker 1: 1:06:11

I'm full of snakes, just the way it is.

Speaker 2: 1:06:14

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 1:06:15

Yeah, we're gonna accept that Lot of it. So Acceptance to and just like, yeah, like the control thing not trying to control and it fucks you up trying to like fucking sleep watches man.

Speaker 2: 1:06:31

I refuse, I refuse you know what I found?

Speaker 1: 1:06:33

it was fucking me up. A sleep watch was fucking me up because I'd I'd get like my sleep score and be like 56 and then you're upset with yourself, and then I'm like man, I guess I am a little tired, like we're obsessed with like eight hours and it has to be the most perfect sleep and I can't feel good unless I get it. But if you didn't know how much you slept and you didn't worry about it too much and you just slept and then woke up, Right when you get that sleep hygiene.

Speaker 1: 1:07:02

Yeah, you don't have to, you don't have to think you're like I slept, that's what I slept exactly, and even if the hours are a little off, okay, maybe it didn't. Maybe only get sex, who cares?

Speaker 2: 1:07:14

right. Your body might not need so nice. It might be 10. Yeah, some might might be five or six, but as long as we get make time for that, you know it's important and Be the sight of the again. Gotta stop making it so complicated. Just break it down and keep it simple and understand that, whatever, it is still gonna be there. Yeah, you know Acceptance.

Speaker 1: 1:07:46

Yeah, it's a little stoicism right so we talked about that, I guess I Guess another kind of thought is. So, as a mental health professional, where do you see, I guess mental health going and kind of I guess pharmaceutical companies seem to be a big part of it, and I feel like there's a fucking crisis brewing in there somewhere there, I agree, I'm not a big pharma person myself.

Speaker 2: 1:08:24

However, I do understand that For, let's say, the mood disorders where it is a legitimate chemical imbalance in the brain, you know we might need, you know, a medication to help.

Speaker 1: 1:08:38

Depression.

Speaker 2: 1:08:40

Depression, the anxiety depression. Yep, we're talking about Carrying the diagnosis of schizophrenia, orderline personality disorder, bipolar disorder. Those are all mood disorders correct and that's legitimate. It's a chemical imbalance, so we do need To have something to help with that. Even with depression, you know it is the chemical in our brain, but we don't have to be on the antidepressants forever.

Speaker 1: 1:09:09

See, I've heard terrible things about like.

Speaker 2: 1:09:11

SSRIs. There, you know, it's who Medications you know, just give it time. I mean, how long?

Speaker 1: 1:09:20

Johnson and Johnson baby powder, and now there's class action suits so who knows, in 30 years on every other fucking thing oh these are gonna you know be.

Speaker 2: 1:09:31

I know they were tying depression. I just just watching some documentary. They were tying depression to birth control pills really. Yeah. Play with hormones Hello.

Speaker 1: 1:09:44

You start fucking around with too much.

Speaker 2: 1:09:46

I Think we're just we don't know we don't know enough, we don't. And if the so I had a. I've had clients before who are a little you know, who've been on the paranoia side. I've been like, well, I don't want to take that drug. And because I just I saw the commercial and I did research and all the side effects and did it, did it, did it, did it, did it, did it. Like you're a hundred percent right. Your concerns are legitimate.

Speaker 2: 1:10:13

It was like you know, because nowadays, if you look at it, the side effects oh, they're crazy longer than the talking about the medication that they're trying to sell, like they just have to cover their asses. So they're gonna list every single side effect, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But we still don't know the long, long, long term effects of what these could do. And now there's not enough. So we have you know and, but again, I'm not. I'm not on the medical side, just in.

Speaker 2: 1:10:49

Yeah knowing what I know about the medications my clients and my patients have worked with. You know some of them need to be monitored for I think yeah, you have to get blood levels checked for some of them. You know there's certain things and when you stick to what the treatment plan actually says and follow with the medications and the behavioral health therapy hand-in-hand- yeah they've got to go together.

Speaker 1: 1:11:16

I've, I've, I've heard that before and unfortunately, you see, like like regular doctors, like your GP, writing people prescriptions for Zoloft and ship man like candy Gabapentin. Now to is like, from what I understand, when you're taking these powerful psychoactive chemicals, you need therapy to go along with it, because your brain's now kind of rewiring Right. You know that's changing and balancing out some things and you need that therapy to go along with it.

Speaker 1: 1:11:56

Mm-hmm and then eventually the goal is you don't need it, not to stay on it forever, like get good habits and then get off.

Speaker 2: 1:12:07

Exactly, it's like using the tools together.

Speaker 2: 1:12:12

Yeah and when we we have that good, that good mixture, and we are doing it together properly, as prescribed, being honest with our therapist yeah, making the progress, changing the behaviors, changing the thought process to a healthier one, reframing those negative thoughts to the positive, we can Maybe start to wean ourselves off of the antidepressants. Now, unfortunately, that may not be all the time. Some people may just have that chemical imbalance, and that's okay too. It's okay if we need to go on antidepressants because we just had a huge loss in our family or in our life's period. It doesn't have to be forever either. So but the talk therapy is very key and that's-.

Speaker 2: 1:13:08

Shouldn't that be number one. It should be number one.

Speaker 1: 1:13:10

It should be number one Because I feel like we just we're too easy to just script Well, yeah, well and that's just in my opinion.

Speaker 2: 1:13:18

Again, just my opinion. You know, that's because insurance companies, they don't wanna pay for the long term psychotherapy. So here's a pill to make you feel better.

Speaker 1: 1:13:28

Yeah, the pill's cheaper.

Speaker 2: 1:13:30

Yeah. Then the long term, which could take years, to go through trauma, which could take years, you know, depending on what the person has going on in their lives, their trauma, their present relationship. What a myriad of things they don't wanna do. That you know. They want the quick fix. They want a bill. You know we're told, it's ingrained in our heads you do not make a diagnosis the first session. You do not make a diagnosis. You do not make a diagnosis. You wanna get paid. You make a diagnosis. You better make that goddamn diagnosis or the insurance company's not gonna give you a penny. Where's the patient-centered care?

Speaker 1: 1:14:09

Well, insurance fuck that up everywhere Very much so I mean insurance Very much so. All insurance is fucked, prices are all out of whack because of insurance, and then the person using the product has no say so on the cost of the product. And then somebody else is paying for it in an office somewhere that's nowhere in the doctor-patient relationship and they're deciding, making decisions on your healthcare, mental healthcare, whatever it is. That's a fuck thing.

Speaker 2: 1:14:38

It's absolutely. And I worked with a community-based service and we got referrals from the insurance company for individuals Medicare, medicaid who qualified for certain programs, which were great, but the guidelines to have to get paid. Are you trying to help people? Yeah, like you're almost saying like hi, here is this, but oh, we can't quite have it yet because you just didn't complete this one little thing. It's like okay, these people legitimately need help. Yeah, you know they're not working with wrap-around community services for no reason.

Speaker 2: 1:15:32

They're trying to get out of the system that they're just stuck in. Yeah, unfortunately, and that's very then it's sad to see, and especially our depressed counties and our depressed areas. You know, I saw something once.

Speaker 1: 1:15:48

I mean depressed counties, depressed areas. You're talking about financial Mm-hmm. I saw something once. I don't know if it was in that. Oh, what was that? Was that Hector in the? Pursuit of happiness, or something, will Smith, the pursuit of happiness.

Speaker 2: 1:16:05

No, no, no, I don't know, it was a great movie.

Speaker 1: 1:16:09

It was about a psychologist, no a psychiatrist. It was a psychiatrist who was treating patients and rich, wealthy patients and he just kept having them for years and years and years and years. It's a great movie because he'd have the same patients with the same problem. They weren't getting any better. So he decided what's the key to happiness and he went on a little journey for it, and I think there's a book written about it too.

Speaker 2: 1:16:37

Sounds familiar, hector I don't know if you put in.

Speaker 1: 1:16:40

Hector, it'll pop up on the phone. It'll pop up on the phone.

Speaker 2: 1:16:45

See, this is great, Very good, but one of the things someone said in that movie they were explaining why all these people are unhappy.

Speaker 1: 1:16:55

And he says the richer the zip code, the more shrinks there are. Mm-hmm, that's fucked up Probably true. You know, I think it's a great book, probably true.

Speaker 2: 1:17:08

You know, and that's a whole, because I've worked in private practice. Briefly, very briefly, it just wasn't a structure for me. I need more structure. Not good with managing that time and I guess probably coming just from the background and working in the community, you know to have young, you know clients who you know want to continue coming but they can't afford it, their insurance won't cover it. It's heartbreaking and it's like let me try to. You know I can get you a free session. You know, and I'm trying to work. You know, and it comes down Now you can't afford mental health care.

Speaker 1: 1:17:58

That's fucked up. There's definitely a breakdown in that.

Speaker 2: 1:18:02

It's got to be accessible for everyone. And yeah, you can be. We're talking about it more than ever, thank goodness.

Speaker 1: 1:18:09

But almost doing less than ever Like actual steps. It's like everyone likes to talk about it, like let's talk about mental health and the destigmatization is good. I think, that's been a great thing of getting people to be able to like come forward. Absolutely and be like okay, I need help, I need to do some rock therapy, and they got those like better help and stuff like that. Where?

Speaker 1: 1:18:31

you can just, you can just re-texting and that's pretty handy If you need it, it's easy, you don't have to go drive somewhere and be weird Right. So those are like great resources.

Speaker 2: 1:18:43

But as a whole between like pharmaceutical companies, the government, healthcare insurance companies, it's like we've done worse and worse and worse at it and I know great strides are being made in communities as far as having mental health professionals, licensed clinicians, writing with designated officers for mental health calls, having crisis teams to come out to mental health calls and such. So it is getting better. But how do we stop that cycle? Because they're stuck in that, it's the constant. And now they've become, they're in the system and they're on the hamster wheel. And how do we get them off of the hamster wheel?

Speaker 2: 1:19:39

You know destigmatizing.

Speaker 1: 1:19:43

That's a weird one. I don't even know how I said it the first time.

Speaker 2: 1:19:46

It's like word salad I can't say it again Words, I could just go with word salad.

Speaker 1: 1:19:50

Destigmatization yes, there we go, man.

Speaker 2: 1:19:53

You got it twice.

Speaker 1: 1:19:54

No In Fuego number three. I don't even know if I'm saying it right. I've said it twice and now it doesn't make sense anymore.

Speaker 2: 1:20:03

Now you're thinking about it too hard, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:20:09

So to leave out on, maybe like kind of a weird or a funny note? I guess I would wonder this, Because you've heard a lot of people say a lot of stuff and tell a lot of stories in the years you've been doing this. You already kind of get where I'm going. What is the weirdest thing anyone's ever told you about? There has to be something that sticks out to you. It's like what the fuck?

Speaker 1: 1:20:40

Like where you're sitting there as their provider and they're telling you this and maybe you're trying to keep the straight face. You're like holy fucking shit, what?

Speaker 2: 1:20:51

Okay, you got one. Oh, my God, I do so working in mental health and wraparound services, so we had our own caseloads. But if someone came in in crisis, obviously whoever was on would go and see them. So everybody was busy. So I'm like gosh, because you just hear stories. We have our meetings every day and so we know these characters and such and they're saying that they're in crisis and I'm like okay, gotta catch up on my notes.

Speaker 2: 1:21:28

Like okay, I'll be right out. So we go into one of the offices in there and he's pacing around and he has a trench coat on in one of the golfing hats, so it's his usual kind of dress and he was handicapped like a flasher trench coat.

Speaker 2: 1:21:46

That would be your first thought yes, that would definitely be your first thought and he was handicapped, so he had lost part of his arm. So, comes in, and he's like I just I'm so frustrated, I'm so frustrated and I can't believe I'm in this crisis right now and I'm like, okay, you know, I'm like what happened? You know what, what happened that has you this activated, you know? And he's like, well, I just you know, I'm trying to be patient and I'm trying to be a good boyfriend and stuff, but my, my lady won't have sex with me. Okay.

Speaker 2: 1:22:23

I said that's a crisis. It's a crisis. He's like, yeah, I don't think I should have to masturbate if I have a girlfriend. I'm like, okay, he was face read.

Speaker 1: 1:22:39

He believed it.

Speaker 2: 1:22:40

He was in belief.

Speaker 1: 1:22:43

He believed it.

Speaker 2: 1:22:44

Believing he was in a mental health crisis.

Speaker 1: 1:22:50

To him he was. That's a hell of a thing.

Speaker 2: 1:22:53

He, he was and I can't believe. And then I'm like I every time I feel like I thought. I always think I'm done having the healthy masturbation talk. I always think I'm done with that.

Speaker 1: 1:23:05

Okay, what's the healthy masturbation talk?

Speaker 2: 1:23:08

Well, because, as you know, that can be an addiction also. Yeah. Masturbations, where you know you're rubbing yourself raw, and such so people who compulsively masturbate. You know these are questions you have to ask and everything you know. Well, is it disrupting your day? Well, no, you know, so it's healthy. What's not okay? Well, you're not, you know. You're not saying no, I'm going to be late to work, no, I can't go to the kids. You're not interrupting your day, You're not physically harming yourself, You're fine, it's healthy, it's natural, You're fine. Okay.

Speaker 1: 1:23:44

Well, that makes me feel better.

Speaker 2: 1:23:46

It is. It's a healthy and gentle part of life. And then people are like what, yeah, what do you think they did to women years ago in the cold ages, when they had presented with hysteria?

Speaker 1: 1:24:01

Oh yeah, they masturbated them. That was a real thing. That was weird that they were that dumb. It was like women don't have orgasms. I know this Like that. That's what the medical community thought. Just a no such thing, we're not going to talk about it. And some guy an inventive vibrator.

Speaker 2: 1:24:25

And now any woman with psychosis, here you go. Hey. I mean, it's just, it's wild, that's a weird story, though I like the face red, she won't.

Speaker 1: 1:24:40

She won't, I should not Was he older?

Speaker 2: 1:24:44

This was. This was a population, but probably between my age and your age. Okay. So older populate like middle mid-age population. I'm not old. Well, you're younger than I am. Yeah sure I've upgraded to vintage or still classic.

Speaker 1: 1:25:02

Oh no, I heard classic rock was like like Metallica, like oldies. They're playing like I know so stuff from the 80s is oldies but freaks me out.

Speaker 2: 1:25:15

I know, but I that's what I still jam out to so.

Speaker 1: 1:25:20

Well, thank you for coming on.

Speaker 2: 1:25:24

Thank you so much. This was a good time yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:25:28

It's an enlightening conversation.

Speaker 2: 1:25:28

Hopefully everyone you know learned something and got some stories out of it, but I hope so, you know, and I, just people, just the education is free. Yeah. You know, donate some time. Yeah, you know Harry Chapin does great stuff in the community with the food banks and everything check out volunteering. Yeah, you know, it takes a community it really does to take care of the community. It is time that the community starts working together and really, you know, starts helping out those that are vulnerable.

Speaker 1: 1:26:01

Even from a selfish perspective. A lot of times, if you're having a problem with you know, maybe some anxiety or depression a good thing to do is to go help other people 100%.

Speaker 2: 1:26:13

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and people aren't your thing. Animal shelters yeah, they are always looking for volunteers.

Speaker 1: 1:26:20

There's a lot, you know. There's a lot of people that were like drug addicts or having problems, and recovered and they ended up working with animals. It's incredible, but that, hey, that's a path to recovery, that's a path to your own.

Speaker 2: 1:26:34

It's also a form of kind of like you do therapy with someone with antisocial personality disorders that have them take care of an animal. We'll open up that little Grinch thing and then when it opens. Yeah, they've learned now compassion because they've taken care of this. I said in some prisons they do that, where they'll let them have obviously earned but to have that and a lot of them have programs that the offenders can work towards as far as training dogs.

Speaker 1: 1:27:11

That seems like a good idea and they go like to the next level to the next level.

Speaker 2: 1:27:17

So they're service animals and it really does help those individuals with antisocial personality disorder learn the compassion. And there was a gentleman that I did work with in the prison and he was training. He had his dog, he was training and pretty horrific crimes. He knew he was going to die there. He said I always loved my wife. He said I would have done anything for her in the world. He said until I started working with this dog, I'm going to die when I have to give this dog, when this dog moves on to its next training place. So he went from this hardened murderer to-.

Speaker 1: 1:28:07

Loving a dog.

Speaker 2: 1:28:09

Understanding the pain that he put victims through, and his wife, who stood by his side. So you know, there are ways.

Speaker 1: 1:28:22

Yeah, huh, it's really interesting. Well, yeah, thank you. Thank you again for coming in and sharing.

Speaker 2: 1:28:32

This was a blast. Thank you so much, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:28:35

And thanks for tuning in to everyone out there. Catch us next time, hope you've enjoyed. Until then, stay out of trouble. We'll see you in church, thanks.